Revenant
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Dreaming with open eyes.
Posts: 23
Now Playing: Lambda Wars
Favorite Game: Perfect Dark
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Post by Revenant on Jan 20, 2016 7:41:42 GMT -5
Saw this trending on FB and just had to post it. Let me know what you guys think.
edit: Just watched it and I'll add my two cents for you guys.
As much as I despise Anita Sarkeesean and Disagree with a lot of what she say's, she's absolutely on target with this one IMHO. I'm not a Cinematography expert, but I'm studying up on it. Camera angles can communicate a lot of ideas through the framing of the shots. Like for Example if a Character is framed in a way so that they appear to be towering over the viewer, they appear more intimidating, and If they are more zoomed out and the camera is looking down at them, they are less threatening looking. The way you frame a character can carry even more weight than the design of the character in the right circumstances, you can take a non-sexualised character with a baggy t-shirt and messy looking hair and sexual them by framing the shot to emphasize their lips or breasts or hips or what have you.
so yeah, I think she's right on this one.
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Post by MGNoxa on Jan 20, 2016 8:43:53 GMT -5
There's a lot of sexy buts in video games but she's cherry picking when it comes to men with capes and long coats, there's more male characters out there with butts on show than those with coats and capes. Obviously male buts are rarely defined in video games, unless you play Metal Gear Solid, so she kinda has a point. However I've gotta ask what's the problem with it? Ii've thought about this (Feminist, SJW, Sexism, Objectification... all of it.) probably more than anyone should and I came to the conclusion that the problem isn't that this stuff exists but that most female characters are this stuff. I came to this conclusion because Anita Sarkeesian's arguments are based around the claim that video games affect us in long term ways once we've put down the controllers but this is simply not the case and there isn't a piece of scientific evidence to support that claim, yet she keeps using it. I also want to point out that different genres have different camera positions, the camera isn't strategically placed (outside of cutscenes) to view the ass of female characters, platformers like Tomb Raider need a camera that is far enough out so you can see Lara and her surroundings this is especially important during the puzzles and shooters like Gears of War feature a closer camera because what you're focusing on is the enemies in front of you, they will rarely get behind you or to the sides of you. In cutscenes Anita Sarkeesian would have a good argument when it comes to camera placement, like the Golden Axe Beastrider cutscene she showed, but for gameplay it's way more complicated than what she makes it out to be. I'm going to link to American McGee's (creator of Alice which was featured as a positive example in Anita's video) Facebook post because he's a developer and has a lot of insight into gameplay. (when he says Cat Woman don't get confused and think he's talking a cat woman, he's talking about Catwoman from Batman. It took me a few minutes to work that out...) Finishing on what I mentioned up above, there's no harm with sexy women in video games or even sexy men. There's no harm with the sexual objectification of female characters because at the end of the day it's all harmless fun. The real concern should be the lack of variety with female characters but that's something that is slowly getting addressed. I'm quoting myself here, I always use this quote when I end up talking about this topic so I guess people are going to see it a lot... Movies like Transformers 2 with Megan Fox in short shorts and leg humping robots don't stop movies like The Shawshank Redemption from existing or being good, the same way Dead or Alive Xtreme 3 doesn't stop Gone Home or Life is Strange from being made. Video games are a business and like most business they are slow to adapt to new markets, eventually there will be a female character everyone can enjoy, whether that's a sexy Bayonetta, a sexualised Lara Croft, the soft and nervous Max form Life is Strange or the strong willed Jade from Beyond Good and Evil. In the mean time, I'll be enjoying my butts... EDIT Hey Revenant I just noticed you were new, welcome to the site!
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Revenant
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Dreaming with open eyes.
Posts: 23
Now Playing: Lambda Wars
Favorite Game: Perfect Dark
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Post by Revenant on Jan 20, 2016 13:45:28 GMT -5
hmm, yeah on the camera angles point that was similar to what I was thinking as well, The camera in a third person game is often positioned behind the character at such a distance where the butt is usually emphasized just by default because its the part that is the closest to the player (if that makes sense) I also think one of the reasons the camera is in that position is because Lara is a more mobile character and can jump and do somersaults ect, and the zoomed out perspective gives the player better control. whereas the characters in Resident Evil are less agile (at least in the gameplay) and that is why it is positioned closer to them I also agree with your second point, as an amateur artist myself I constantly push for perfection and could really care less about realism unless the point of the character is to be realistic, if you see what I'm saying also thanks but I'm not new this is my alt account of rev86, I lost my login info x.x SpoilerThere's a lot of sexy buts in video games but she's cherry picking when it comes to men with capes and long coats, there's more male characters out there with butts on show than those with coats and capes. Obviously male buts are rarely defined in video games, unless you play Metal Gear Solid, so she kinda has a point. However I've gotta ask what's the problem with it? Ii've thought about this (Feminist, SJW, Sexism, Objectification... all of it.) probably more than anyone should and I came to the conclusion that the problem isn't that this stuff exists but that most female characters are this stuff. I came to this conclusion because Anita Sarkeesian's arguments are based around the claim that video games affect us in long term ways once we've put down the controllers but this is simply not the case and there isn't a piece of scientific evidence to support that claim, yet she keeps using it. I also want to point out that different genres have different camera positions, the camera isn't strategically placed (outside of cutscenes) to view the ass of female characters, platformers like Tomb Raider need a camera that is far enough out so you can see Lara and her surroundings this is especially important during the puzzles and shooters like Gears of War feature a closer camera because what you're focusing on is the enemies in front of you, they will rarely get behind you or to the sides of you. In cutscenes Anita Sarkeesian would have a good argument when it comes to camera placement, like the Golden Axe Beastrider cutscene she showed, but for gameplay it's way more complicated than what she makes it out to be. I'm going to link to American McGee's (creator of Alice which was featured as a positive example in Anita's video) Facebook post because he's a developer and has a lot of insight into gameplay. (when he says Cat Woman don't get confused and think he's talking a cat woman, he's talking about Catwoman from Batman. It took me a few minutes to work that out...) Finishing on what I mentioned up above, there's no harm with sexy women in video games or even sexy men. There's no harm with the sexual objectification of female characters because at the end of the day it's all harmless fun. The real concern should be the lack of variety with female characters but that's something that is slowly getting addressed. I'm quoting myself here, I always use this quote when I end up talking about this topic so I guess people are going to see it a lot... Movies like Transformers 2 with Megan Fox in short shorts and leg humping robots don't stop movies like The Shawshank Redemption from existing or being good, the same way Dead or Alive Xtreme 3 doesn't stop Gone Home or Life is Strange from being made. Video games are a business and like most business they are slow to adapt to new markets, eventually there will be a female character everyone can enjoy, whether that's a sexy Bayonetta, a sexualised Lara Croft, the soft and nervous Max form Life is Strange or the strong willed Jade from Beyond Good and Evil. In the mean time, I'll be enjoying my butts... EDIT Hey Revenant I just noticed you were new, welcome to the site!
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Post by MGNoxa on Jan 21, 2016 1:11:12 GMT -5
I also agree with your second point, as an amateur artist myself I constantly push for perfection and could really care less about realism unless the point of the character is to be realistic, if you see what I'm saying I've talked with a lot of developers privately, none that I can name because many would only talk about this privately (One incredibly famous developer but his opinions are well known though, several smaller ones, some indies.) Many agree with this statement but are pressured from higher-ups in the company to change the games, because they are worried the negative attention people like Anita Sarkeesian bring will damage the sales of the games. Many developers don't want to change their work, especially when it's over something as silly as "This characters butt is sexy." Also many don't want to change because the only games Anita has damaged the sales of are the ones where developers listened to her. I just want to say again that it's important that more women game but forcing change and censoring developers is not the answer. I wish this was more obvious to a lot of people.
Sucks that you lost your log in details. I can't remember if I've interacted with you before (sorry) but nice to meet you again!
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Post by Blade Runner 07 on Jan 21, 2016 3:54:27 GMT -5
Strategic butt coverings.
That is all.
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Post by MGNoxa on Jan 21, 2016 5:18:18 GMT -5
Strategic butt coverings. That is all. Buy yours now!
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Xargen
Metal Gear
Kickin' names, taking ass.
Posts: 1,651
Now Playing: I PLAY THA VIDJA GAMES!
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Post by Xargen on Jan 21, 2016 7:26:08 GMT -5
I use a pair of jeans as strategic butt covering... Sometimes I even wear boxers under them just to make sure
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Revenant
Likes the Forums
Dreaming with open eyes.
Posts: 23
Now Playing: Lambda Wars
Favorite Game: Perfect Dark
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Post by Revenant on Jan 21, 2016 8:48:50 GMT -5
I also agree with your second point, as an amateur artist myself I constantly push for perfection and could really care less about realism unless the point of the character is to be realistic, if you see what I'm saying I've talked with a lot of developers privately, none that I can name because many would only talk about this privately (One incredibly famous developer but his opinions are well known though, several smaller ones, some indies.) Many agree with this statement but are pressured from higher-ups in the company to change the games, because they are worried the negative attention people like Anita Sarkeesian bring will damage the sales of the games. Many developers don't want to change their work, especially when it's over something as silly as "This characters butt is sexy." Also many don't want to change because the only games Anita has damaged the sales of are the ones where developers listened to her. I just want to say again that it's important that more women game but forcing change and censoring developers is not the answer. I wish this was more obvious to a lot of people.
Sucks that you lost your log in details. I can't remember if I've interacted with you before (sorry) but nice to meet you again! I think the way we get women gaming doesn't lie in the way that we potray the characters physically, I think it is the way that we potray them mentally, meaning we tell their story and give them personalities more like a real woman that they can relate to. almost all Men in video games are drop dead gorgeous men that look like they are either someone out of a Vogue magazine or a Bodybuilders convention, and that does not stop men from relating to those characters, because with few exceptions, they think and feel the way that real men do. yeah that is kind of what I figured. I always had the suspicion that a lot of the change to female characters wasn't so much the artists having a change of heart rather than it was the pressure to be politically correct. another point on artistry, you may not know this (I don't know if you are an artist yourself or not) but when you create characters, it is actually more difficult to make a character that has flaws than one that doesn't, because with a character that has flaws, even minor ones, you usually have to add in the flaws to the character after they are finished with things like bumpmaps/normals ect, unless it is a serious deformity. The issue with this is that when you do this, you have to convey to the player the flaws of the said character while also making it clear that the flaw is not from your own lack of ability or a mistake, and it makes creating characters that have flaws is a very tricky process. It's a lot easier as an artist to mass produce anime girl faces that all look the same and give them a couple of different hairstyles or outfits than it is to pour hours into a single character to tailor the flaws of the character one at a time. thanks, and I think we have talked before but its all a blur lmao
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Post by MGNoxa on Jan 21, 2016 9:53:16 GMT -5
yeah that is kind of what I figured. I always had the suspicion that a lot of the change to female characters wasn't so much the artists having a change of heart rather than it was the pressure to be politically correct. another point on artistry, you may not know this (I don't know if you are an artist yourself or not) but when you create characters, it is actually more difficult to make a character that has flaws than one that doesn't, because with a character that has flaws, even minor ones, you usually have to add in the flaws to the character after they are finished with things like bumpmaps/normals ect, unless it is a serious deformity. The issue with this is that when you do this, you have to convey to the player the flaws of the said character while also making it clear that the flaw is not from your own lack of ability or a mistake, and it makes creating characters that have flaws is a very tricky process. It's a lot easier as an artist to mass produce anime girl faces that all look the same and give them a couple of different hairstyles or outfits than it is to pour hours into a single character to tailor the flaws of the character one at a time. thanks, and I think we have talked before but its all a blur lmao I'm no artist, I just value having the freedom to create what you want as long as it's nothing that is intentionally hateful. Also, I like sexy women so it's win win when it comes to defending it! But it's the freedom I value more, if sexy female characters in gaming disappear, I'll be annoyed but I won't be angry if I know someone could make Bayonetta 3 without anyone accusing them of being a misogynist. I've never thought of imperfections that way in character design, it's something interesting to think about. If I drew someone fictional and they were supposed to be what is generally accepted as ugly then some would accuse me of being a bad artist, whereas if I drew an incredibly attractive man or woman I'm suddenly an amazing artist. Ken Levine when he and his artists designed Elizabeth for Bioshock Infinite they gave her a missing little finger so it was just a stump, many thought it was a glitch or a mistake, so they added a metal thimble to the finger so people realised it was intentional. Pretty smart. In real life people would realise it's missing and think nothing of it so it's interesting how people may perceive imperfections in a fictional character as mistakes. Maybe we have talked before or maybe it was strategically covered up... I suck at drawing btw. X-23, she's supposed to be american but looks asian, has a weird hip and stomach but that's because I was trying to make it look like she was walking forward. The muscles in her arms were supposed to be straight with a slight curve, because I really like that art style.
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Revenant
Likes the Forums
Dreaming with open eyes.
Posts: 23
Now Playing: Lambda Wars
Favorite Game: Perfect Dark
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Post by Revenant on Jan 21, 2016 10:52:23 GMT -5
yeah free artistic expression must be defended at all costs, it's fine to be sensitive to the way people think and feel, but when artists start becoming forced to do it, then it becomes a problem.
yeah elizabeth is a great example of what I was getting at, I had no idea about that until now!
she looks good, not bad at all!
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Post by Blade Runner 07 on Jan 21, 2016 13:25:13 GMT -5
yeah free artistic expression must be defended at all costs, it's fine to be sensitive to the way people think and feel, but when artists start becoming forced to do it, then it becomes a problem. Right, and in thirty years there will be more people trying to play it safe and objectify woman for money. It's a fundamental flaw with the level a freedom we have but that's the way it is and the alternative is a slippery slope. There will also always be a woman willing to get naked if it means some kind of monetary or social gain. In many cases, woman are just as guilty as the men, if not more, for being used and objectified. I guess it's good to talk about these things and I only refer to first-world "free" countries in saying this, but things are getting better all the time for woman (female characters) in entertainment. There will be men and woman out there that treat the opposite (or same) sex like means to an end no matter what. The woman on the video isnt doing anything short of recounting the history of whatever her beef with sexism is right now. What she highlights are things that many times can't be changed.
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Revenant
Likes the Forums
Dreaming with open eyes.
Posts: 23
Now Playing: Lambda Wars
Favorite Game: Perfect Dark
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Post by Revenant on Jan 21, 2016 15:13:33 GMT -5
yeah free artistic expression must be defended at all costs, it's fine to be sensitive to the way people think and feel, but when artists start becoming forced to do it, then it becomes a problem. Right, and in thirty years there will be more people trying to play it safe and objectify woman for money. It's a fundamental flaw with the level a freedom we have but that's the way it is and the alternative is a slippery slope. There will also always be a woman willing to get naked if it means some kind of monetary or social gain. In many cases, woman are just as guilty as the men, if not more, for being used and objectified. I guess it's good to talk about these things and I only refer to first-world "free" countries in saying this, but things are getting better all the time for woman (female characters) in entertainment. There will be men and woman out there that treat the opposite (or same) sex like means to an end no matter what. The woman on the video isnt doing anything short of recounting the history of whatever her beef with sexism is right now. What she highlights are things that many times can't be changed. that gets on another point i've been thinking about, and I guess it's kind of the elephant in the room here. the truth is sex sells, man or woman people like eye candy and i'm guessing that is not going to change anytime soon no matter how much people don't like it. yeah, In America we're all having a big hoopla about race relations and stuff like that (just google chris rock slammed for hosting "white" Oscars" the point is, it seems like people are moving towards more social justice and things like that naturally, and with women now allowed in combat roles since I think 2012, the perception of women not only in videogames but also reality will shift more towards viewing women as people as time goes on. It seems like things have changed a lot since the women's suffrage movement, but society changes more slowly than you think and peoples memories are short, especially of history. Like you say people will always be willing to use women (or men) to get what they want, and as long as that goes on, there will always be that percentage of vg women that are seen as pieces of meat. intentionally or no. I guess some things never change
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Lenrat117
A Hind D!?
I may have the body of a weak and feeble man but I have the Heart and Stomach of a Queen.
Posts: 557
Now Playing: probably Fallout New Vegas
Favorite Game: probably Europa Universalis 4
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Post by Lenrat117 on Jan 22, 2016 16:13:58 GMT -5
Didn't we agree a while back not to post these videos on here since everyone knows they're bullshit anyway?
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Lenrat117
A Hind D!?
I may have the body of a weak and feeble man but I have the Heart and Stomach of a Queen.
Posts: 557
Now Playing: probably Fallout New Vegas
Favorite Game: probably Europa Universalis 4
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Post by Lenrat117 on Jan 22, 2016 16:16:12 GMT -5
But since I'm here, strategic butt covering is hilarious
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Lenrat117
A Hind D!?
I may have the body of a weak and feeble man but I have the Heart and Stomach of a Queen.
Posts: 557
Now Playing: probably Fallout New Vegas
Favorite Game: probably Europa Universalis 4
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Post by Lenrat117 on Jan 22, 2016 16:17:05 GMT -5
I do believe it's what we in the LGBT call a butt plug
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