Lenrat117
A Hind D!?
I may have the body of a weak and feeble man but I have the Heart and Stomach of a Queen.
Posts: 557
Now Playing: probably Fallout New Vegas
Favorite Game: probably Europa Universalis 4
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Post by Lenrat117 on Jan 23, 2016 16:51:38 GMT -5
I just thought since representation is coming up a fair amount on the forum I'd throw in what representation looks like from the point of view of the LGBT. This game theory video articulates better than I can.
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Revenant
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Dreaming with open eyes.
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Now Playing: Lambda Wars
Favorite Game: Perfect Dark
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Post by Revenant on Jan 23, 2016 17:26:02 GMT -5
I just thought since representation is coming up a fair amount on the forum I'd throw in what representation looks like from the point of view of the LGBT. This game theory video articulates better than I can. A Very interesting theory, one that I think is pretty true all things considered. Way back when I was debating on political forums over things like gun rights, abortion, ect, I learned about a phenomenon in society called the "Overton window" Bascially the overton window is a narrow band of ideas that people are willing to accept in the current social "norms". Anything outside of the "overton window" elicits a "knee-jerk" reaction and is considered bad no matter if it is something that is actually bad or not. I think Gaming is staring through that window right now, and until it matures (along with society) it's going to stay that way. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_windowPeoples minds are hard to change, and it sometimes takes generations for them to even consider changing, the way I see it, if the LGBT community is ever going to be represented in the light they want to be represented in, they are going to have to organize and take the fight to the devs or at the very least the people who report on games. Not sure what else to say other than that, but yeah Videogames basically are in that phase books were in about 50-60 years ago, where its dangerous to step outside the norms.
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Post by MGNoxa on Jan 24, 2016 5:15:19 GMT -5
I don't know if I would call games anti-LGBT. There's definitely games out there that probably are homophobic but as someone that likes to write lots of short stories (I'm not sharing any of them with anyone... they suck... well I think I did one that was awesome but no one will see it. Ever.) I love villains so I focus on them quite a bit and there's times where I think "What would make him/her cooler? What if he/she was gay/lesbian?" I'm not trying to portray LGBT people in a bad light I'm jus thinking what would make this character awesome. A lot of the games in the video would've been written by people like me, not professional and fanboy writers, it probably didn't even occur to them that loads of gay characters are villains.
At the same time I think calling out Trevor (GTAV) as a bad portrayal is wrong. He's in a GTA game, a game that makes fun of everyone and the type of guy Trevor is, he would hate gay people and that's why Rockstar made him gay. It might be insensitive but I wouldn't call it anti-gay.
For the lesbian part, I've got two theories on this. The first is pretty obvious, with straight men being the higher percentage of gamers lesbians will easily be accepted by them, even homophobes because while they may not like lesbian love or marriage they probably don't mind watching two hot women kiss. The second theory is you've got to start somewhere so why not start with something that isn't going to get hate? It might even make some homophobic people realise that being gay isn't bad.
It's depressing that the majority of LGBT characters are villains, but the problem shouldn't be that their villains, is should be that there isn't enough neutrals and heroes. One argument I've seen SJW's use when it comes to the portrayal of female characters is that women can't be villains because it promotes hatred towards them, this is such a dumb way of looking at it and it's the same for LGBT characters. Some of the best characters throughout the history of film, tv, games, comics, books, any sort of entertainment media have been villains.
I just want to end that saying forcing change is going to damage the good work that has been done. Games like Dragon Age Inquisition have done more damage to gay characters in video games than people like to admit, when you're dealing with homophobic (some are only slight, because they just think it's gross) people you need to win them over and having poorly handled dialogue trees that lead to gay characters hitting on the player character, it does more damage, it's the only way to put it. It needs to be carefully inserted (not a pun) otherwise you lose the most important people and their the homophobic ones that can change, if you lose them then it sets LGBT representation back in video games.
Also SJW's are also to blame for a lot of this perceived misogyny and homophobia in gaming. A lot of people who aren't sexist or homophobic are just paranoid that developers are trying to appease this SJW audience, like Evie Frye in Assassin's Creed, Ubisoft couldn't of added her as a playable character in the time between the Unity controversy and Syndicate's release, it's impossible. However SJW complaining made a lot of people not care and accused SJW's for forcing developers to make a change they didn't want to make.
The world is changing, it's getting better for everyone, it may not be moving as quick as what we want and it probably could be sped up in other areas, but forcing change isn't the answer.
I'll say this to any game developers, don't worry, just focus on creating awesome characters, LGBT, villains, heroes, it doesn't matter. The only way to win over the ones holding us back is by showing them amazing characters. Look at Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, that movie had the first gay action hero, he was awesome, how many people do you think became alright with gay characters in movies after that?
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Post by crankiestseeker on Jan 24, 2016 19:22:37 GMT -5
Wow, I remember when that channel used to be about crazy in-game theories, not about the gaming meta and industry.
Anyway, my main complaint with the video is that even though he acknowledges that there are a number of games and series that do portray lgbt characters in a positive light he argues that 1 - there isn't a significant enough number and 2 - that what little games have "model" lgbt characters don't have enough sales to really impact the industry. 2 is not a real argument, and is the equivalent of saying "why don't you like what I like?" Of course games that appeal to a niche fan base don't have the largest following, but in exchange those fans are loyal. 2 really isn't an argument at all, but rather trying to point out that games that don't appeal to the majority don't sell to the majority (shocker). 1 is a bit better of an argument, but not really an argument at all when you look deeper into it. There is nothing preventing developers including "good" (or model, whatever the author used) lgbt characters in their games. This is evidenced by the number of games that do include these characters. Rather, what the author has pointed out is a correlation that games that happen to focus on lgbt characters as the "good guys" don't tend to sell well. Do you see how that really isn't an argument?
Now, one thing this video does address is that the West and especially the US tend to have a problem with lgbt characters being shown. I was very glad he brought up Vivian from Paper Mario (one of my favorite games) and the fact that this whole dynamic of the character's sexuality got removed. I am disappointed some of my favorite series (Catherine with Erica and Wartech with Cuilan) didn't make the list to represent good lgbt characters. It seems to be more of a cultural thing, probably having to do with the US coming from such a WASP-y heritage. But yes, I would certainly agree that the West has a habit of censoring lgbt works, which I am totally against. I think what it comes down to is a matter of capitalism though, in that a game that tries to make money tries to be as uncontroversial as possible. lgbt characters can be controversial in the West because of muh Jesus and such.
tl;dr Video games are not anti-LGBT. The West certainly has a nasty habit of censoring games that show lgbt characters however, which is a bad thing. However, the reason for doing this is probably because big companies (such as Nintendo) do not want to risk losing profit by being controversial. If you want a game to appeal to a niche community or tackle controversial issues, you are more likely to find this in smaller companies and games that are less worried about making money.
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Silent Sputnik
A Hind D!?
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Post by Silent Sputnik on Jan 24, 2016 23:05:14 GMT -5
Assuming that some video-games were anti-LGB, who cares?
Firstly, the evidence that social messages in video games affect real life is scant.
More importantly, people can make whatever games they want. If they're offensive enough then consumers will punish the developers by not buying the product.
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Xargen
Metal Gear
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Post by Xargen on Jan 25, 2016 12:17:29 GMT -5
Yaknow, every time I see a question like this it makes me sigh a bit and shake my head... It's like "Are cars blue?" "Do white people like marmite?" "Are planets made of ice?" Some are some aren't yaknow? My answer to the question "Are video games anti-LBGT?" is; On the whole? From what I've experienced? No, however I've never paid much attention to peoples sexualities in most games to notice... Other than Mass Effect 3 of course, which I believe they did very well.
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Post by MGNoxa on Jan 25, 2016 13:46:46 GMT -5
Other than Mass Effect 3 of course, which I believe they did very well. I would say Mass Effect 3 did it terribly. Now as someone that is very pro-LGBT I don't care if developers want gay characters for whatever reason so they don't bother me and even if they did bother me it wouldn't be my place to tell them to stop. But what I mean by ME3 doing it terribly is, it beats you over the head with it, so all you've done is annoy those that are homophobic and maybe even make some people who are on the fence go into the homophobic side, Dragon Age Inquisition made the same mistakes. I'm not a professional writer or anything so I have no answer for how to do it right, but I think it's important for developers, not just video game developers this should be all creators, I think it's important for them to learn how to do it right and I'll point them towards Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, it's a great movie with an awesome gay character that will win people over. The problem with Bioware games is that their LGB characters are LGB first then a character second, the pilot in ME3 one of the first things you learn about him is that he's gay, same with Samantha in ME3, whereas the straight characters in ME1, 2 and 3 are all character first then sexual orientation last, way last. Jack is straight but through discussions, many discussions you learn that she's bi but if Jack would've been a lesbian romance option it would've been one of the first things you learn about her. These characters are great, Samantha is one of my favourite ME characters but you gotta treat it the same way dogs treat dog butts. Butt first, get friendly, then ease them in, that way you don't lose the most important people when it comes to moving forwards. The ones that don't know what to do about LGBT rights.
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neatdog
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Post by neatdog on Jan 25, 2016 15:21:14 GMT -5
I think this episode of game theory is complete drivel. Video games are a medium - not a genre and certainly not a singularity with one opinion or motive - which means they're pretty much incapable of being a single 'anything'. There are games about the beauty of all sexualities, much like there are probably a few games out there with a less than positive attitude towards LGBT, but that is inherently down to the developers.
Hell, I don't think the film industry is anti-gay just because Mel Gibson exists. It's not fair to say that 'video games' as a whole are anti-gay when you have things like Gone Home breaking down walls or just generally lesbians. I'm sorry I got off track there thinking about lesbians.
...You know what, game theory is being silly, I'm tired, so I'm just gonna go think about lesbians some more.
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Silent Sputnik
A Hind D!?
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Favorite Game: Warcraft III
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Post by Silent Sputnik on Jan 25, 2016 15:29:47 GMT -5
I think this episode of game theory is complete drivel. Lol my main problem with the video is that it's boring as hell.
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Post by MGNoxa on Jan 25, 2016 16:36:49 GMT -5
...You know what, game theory is being silly, I'm tired, so I'm just gonna go think about lesbians some more. I guess you played Life is Strange for the lesbians? Yeah this really annoys me, they say Quiet in MGSV makes the gaming industry and gamers look bad but surely it only makes MGSV or the MGS franchise look bad? (that's assuming you don't like Quiet, I think she's awesome.) When people call out a movie like Sin City for being sexist they just focus on Sin City and the people responsible, it never extends to the industry at large, I have no idea why video games are treated differently. (I think Sin City is awesome.)
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Lenrat117
A Hind D!?
I may have the body of a weak and feeble man but I have the Heart and Stomach of a Queen.
Posts: 557
Now Playing: probably Fallout New Vegas
Favorite Game: probably Europa Universalis 4
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Post by Lenrat117 on Jan 25, 2016 16:47:52 GMT -5
Honestly I think quiet makes kojima look bad for not admitting that she's just T and A for the hell of it. I'd be fine with that. A little laddishness never harmed anyone.
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Post by MGNoxa on Jan 26, 2016 5:11:28 GMT -5
Honestly I think quiet makes kojima look bad for not admitting that she's just T and A for the hell of it. I'd be fine with that. A little laddishness never harmed anyone. Well... Kojima is Kojima.
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Lenrat117
A Hind D!?
I may have the body of a weak and feeble man but I have the Heart and Stomach of a Queen.
Posts: 557
Now Playing: probably Fallout New Vegas
Favorite Game: probably Europa Universalis 4
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Post by Lenrat117 on Jan 26, 2016 5:40:23 GMT -5
Kojima's gonna Kojima.
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Post by MGNoxa on Jan 26, 2016 6:55:08 GMT -5
He Kojima, only Kojima, all he does is Kojima and Kojima.
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