pootle
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Post by pootle on Jan 22, 2016 12:06:57 GMT -5
Okay so first question, isn't what you just described feminism as just egalitarianism? I haven't looked into any movements but from the outside that's what egalitarianism looks like to me. (I don't label myself as anything I just see everyone as an individual and judge them as an individual, no idea if that has a name.) Second, seeing as we're on a site that's primarily video games, what do you think of Feminist Frequency and the "SJW's" that are trying to change games? Sorry if this post comes across as aggressive or interrogating, all my friends say my typing comes across as angry. It's something I'm trying to work on. 1) I actually agree with you, yes to me they are one and the same. I could describe myself as either quite happily and I don't feel one demeans the other in any way. I suppose because of my gender, that I identify more with one term than the other; but I wouldn't say there's more to it than that. 2) Your second question, I could talk about for hours, but suffice to say although I agree that there are certain things in the gaming industry that need to change with regards to women and how they're portrayed; I think certain women and their methods at challenging it are not that helpful. I've written about this at length before and I'll try and find the links for some of that if you're really interested; though our site goes down tonight and isn't back up til Feb for a revamp so it might have to wait til then. You haven't come across as aggressive or interrogating. It's a pleasure to be engaged in a discussion without being called names or dismissed, if anything. I find this place genuinely friendly and I have no reason to think anyone here is anything other than lovely and friendly; which is rare on the internet.
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Post by MGNoxa on Jan 22, 2016 12:51:29 GMT -5
1) I actually agree with you, yes to me they are one and the same. I could describe myself as either quite happily and I don't feel one demeans the other in any way. I suppose because of my gender, that I identify more with one term than the other; but I wouldn't say there's more to it than that. 2) Your second question, I could talk about for hours, but suffice to say although I agree that there are certain things in the gaming industry that need to change with regards to women and how they're portrayed; I think certain women and their methods at challenging it are not that helpful. I've written about this at length before and I'll try and find the links for some of that if you're really interested; though our site goes down tonight and isn't back up til Feb for a revamp so it might have to wait til then. You haven't come across as aggressive or interrogating. It's a pleasure to be engaged in a discussion without being called names or dismissed, if anything. I find this place genuinely friendly and I have no reason to think anyone here is anything other than lovely and friendly; which is rare on the internet. 1) That makes sense. I identify with some things over others which are very similar, to be honest it kinda went over my head why one might support feminism over egalitarianism because they are a woman... Many consider feminism to be the same so I was just wondering why so many stick with feminism, thanks for clearing that up. 2) I could also talk about this for hours, some of my thoughts are in other threads on this forum about Feminist Frequency and some of the ideas presented. As far as I know I don't think I've agreed with a single point of hers. I am interested in your thoughts on this so I'll be sure to check out your stuff in February. Glad to see you enjoy the community! Some really intelligent people, not sure if I'm one of them...
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Silent Sputnik
A Hind D!?
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Post by Silent Sputnik on Jan 22, 2016 14:37:06 GMT -5
You don't speak of feminism in the sense that most of us practice it - you're referring to the women who go out of their way to incite hatred between the sexes and are generally man-haters. That isn't what feminism is, for the majority. I see where you're coming from. But sadly, radicals have completely co-opted Feminism. The meaning of an ideology does not come from the dictionary but instead by the words and actions of its most prominent and popular proponents in academia and popular culture. Under 20% of American women now consider themselves to be Feminists because of this fact. For most of us though it is about a great deal more than that. It's a commitment to the idea that society can eradicate the ideology of domination that is largely evident on lots of levels - not just those related to gender. An opposition to discrimination, exploitation, and oppression of people due to their gender, sexual orientation, race, class... many things. I disagree with the implication that women in developed countries are oppressed. They are in fact the most privileged group in human history. Okay so first question, isn't what you just described feminism as just egalitarianism? I haven't looked into any movements but from the outside that's what egalitarianism looks like to me. (I don't label myself as anything I just see everyone as an individual and judge them as an individual, no idea if that has a name.) Yes, that's what she's describing. So to answer your question isn't feminism as just egalitarianism? No because egalitarianism fails to address gender equality. Disagree. Egalitarianism addresses all inequities.
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Lenrat117
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I may have the body of a weak and feeble man but I have the Heart and Stomach of a Queen.
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Post by Lenrat117 on Jan 22, 2016 16:19:51 GMT -5
Down with binary gender!!
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Post by JMMREVIEW on Jan 22, 2016 17:16:36 GMT -5
I see where you're coming from. But sadly, radicals have completely co-opted Feminism. Wow radicals?! Seriously though radicals? you think the problem is people who are strongly for equality? People who have distorted feminism are the problem. The moment something stops becoming about equality it stops being about feminism. *Edit: What is a radical of equality anyway? Someone who REALLY wants equality? Why is that a bad thing. I disagree with the implication that women in developed countries are oppressed. They are in fact the most privileged group in human history. Oh really so women are more privileged than white males?
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Xargen
Metal Gear
Kickin' names, taking ass.
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Post by Xargen on Jan 22, 2016 18:44:02 GMT -5
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Silent Sputnik
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Post by Silent Sputnik on Jan 22, 2016 19:25:24 GMT -5
I see where you're coming from. But sadly, radicals have completely co-opted Feminism. Wow radicals?! Seriously though radicals? you think the problem is people who are strongly for equality? People who have distorted feminism are the problem. The moment something stops becoming about equality it stops being about feminism. You misunderstand me. I'm saying that radical Feminists (the ones who aren't for equality) have taken over the movement. You can tell this is true because the vast majority of women no longer consider themselves to be Feminists. Radical Feminists are for female supremacy, hatred of men, affirmative action, censorship, etc. I've had a lot of experience dealing with that in university. I suspect that we may agree on principles, but disagree on the meaning of the Feminist ideology. You think that the moment popular Feminism stopped being about equality, it stopped being Feminism. But I think that the moment it stopped being about equality, most people abandoned the term in favour of others. Oh really so women are more privileged than white males? Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. By almost every metric they have the advantage over white men.
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Xargen
Metal Gear
Kickin' names, taking ass.
Posts: 1,651
Now Playing: I PLAY THA VIDJA GAMES!
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Post by Xargen on Jan 22, 2016 20:12:44 GMT -5
I get the feeling feminism in the US and feminism in the UK are experienced differently... I've seen a lot of what Sputnik is talking about online, but not in person
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Silent Sputnik
A Hind D!?
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Post by Silent Sputnik on Jan 22, 2016 20:56:35 GMT -5
I get the feeling feminism in the US and feminism in the UK are experienced differently... I've seen a lot of what Sputnik is talking about online, but not in person I know that UK universities are also infected with radical Feminism as well. And then there was this UK survey that explains why only 14% of British women are Feminists. Source: www.netmums.com/home/feminismSo I would say that it's similar comparing both countries.
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Post by MGNoxa on Jan 23, 2016 9:44:54 GMT -5
People who have distorted feminism are the problem. The moment something stops becoming about equality it stops being about feminism. You misunderstand me. I'm saying that radical Feminists (the ones who aren't for equality) have taken over the movement. You can tell this is true because the vast majority of women no longer consider themselves to be Feminists. Radical Feminists are for female supremacy, hatred of men, affirmative action, censorship, etc. I've had a lot of experience dealing with that in university. I think it's best to just call them SJW's. Many women are feminists and dislike the current stuff going on in feminism so that's why I don't refer to them as feminists. As a man I don't want to go around saying "You're not a feminist!" but when there's one group of feminists who want equality and everything that makes sense and just want a discussion to raise awareness and another group who wants to get rid of everything they dislike through cry-bullying... Well then I know which group I'm calling SJW's and which group I'm calling Feminists. Also at the same time there's many who are neutral or share views of both groups, we're all human and and have individual opinions. I've been called an SJW for some of my opinions, right wing for others (believe me I'm incredibly far left from the right) I've even been accused of being a "White Knight" which is an incredibly stupid claim because I've never ever done that in my life. You know I can't stand SJW's and if I'm remembering correctly we almost got off on the wrong foot, which is funny, but I'm just saying that someone being able to label themselves as something can be very important to them and I don't want to take that away from them when there's nothing insidious going on. I do agree with you thought radical feminists, as in the way you describe them, (not sure if radical is the right word but we'll go with it for now) have distorted feminism and it's a shame because it damages feminists that have noble goals and makes people like me who want to help them get called an SJW or White Knight.
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Silent Sputnik
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Post by Silent Sputnik on Jan 23, 2016 11:06:09 GMT -5
I think it's best to just call them SJW's. Many women are feminists and dislike the current stuff going on in feminism so that's why I don't refer to them as feminists. As a man I don't want to go around saying "You're not a feminist!" but when there's one group of feminists who want equality and everything that makes sense and just want a discussion to raise awareness and another group who wants to get rid of everything they dislike through cry-bullying... Well then I know which group I'm calling SJW's and which group I'm calling Feminists. You're right, there are egalitarian-minded women who consider themselves to be Feminists. I argue that their use of the label helps the radicals who hijacked it. When I'm having conversations on these issues I avoid using labels if at all possible and focus on the issues. I've been called an SJW for some of my opinions, right wing for others (believe me I'm incredibly far left from the right) I've even been accused of being a "White Knight" which is an incredibly stupid claim because I've never ever done that in my life. The left-right spectrum is pretty dumb too. I wish people would just debate the issues without political attacks.
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Post by JMMREVIEW on Jan 23, 2016 11:32:13 GMT -5
You misunderstand me. I'm saying that radical Feminists (the ones who aren't for equality) have taken over the movement. Okay well I think you are wrong on this point then. If I called myself a Muslim and told you I believed that my god was a unicorn that lived in my shoe called Bob you would be will within your right to say "I am sorry but you are not a Muslim that is now what Muslims believe". Whereas if I said I am a Muslim and I believe we should kill infidels, you or I can back this claim up using the Quran. Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help." Now there is no holy book of feminism but just f@@king google the definition! Feminism - The advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men. ^if it contradicts this, it's not feminism! Simple Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. By almost every metric they have the advantage over white men. I don't really know where to start with this one, let's agree to disagree.
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Silent Sputnik
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Post by Silent Sputnik on Jan 23, 2016 12:14:29 GMT -5
One might think that I'm being ridiculous in definition Feminism differently. But the problem we have is that there have been several different Feminisms in the last century. I agree with first and second-wave Feminism (as do almost everyone) and am very opposed to third-wave Feminism. Its principles are against gender equity. Third-wave Feminism is the current popular version in today's universities and in the media. I have decided to agree on agreeing to disagree. Here's a primer on men's issues for the record: www.avoiceformen.com/the-facts-about-men-and-boys/
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Post by Mr.Spinks on Jan 25, 2016 3:40:05 GMT -5
Yeah, I will clarify I was talking about a minute amount of people
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Post by crankiestseeker on Jan 25, 2016 11:37:10 GMT -5
I think most people would probably fall in line with second wave-feminism. My girlfriend is actually a pretty big feminist, and so when I told her I wasn't one she said that the definition of feminism is "fighting for equal rights for both men and women." I told her I wasn't sure if I felt right using that definition to define modern feminism.
I'll include Lauren Southern's "Why I'm not a feminist" below. When some feminists are confronted with the reality that their movement does nothing to address men's issues (such as you would expect from a movement fighting for equality) they will say that by dismantling the patriarchy it will help men too, but all the explanations I have seen for why that would help have been fairly vague and unsatisfactory.
Here in the US I would say that there are some legit problems for women, especially with how some states treat abortion. Some shady laws (such as Targeted Regulation of Abortion Providers laws - TRAP laws) actually target the facilities themselves. So while abortions can be legal in some states, they try to make it insanely difficult to get one because they target the providers themselves, not the issue. It would be like making abortions legal in Texas but making it so that abortion clinics were illegal. There's also the matter of women not being required to sign up for the draft but men are - which again is a legitimate complaint. The draft is an issue up to debate, but I personally think TRAP laws fall better under the fight against shitty laws and corrupt politicians, not necessarily a feminist view, but you could argue it is a matter that really only involves women. Anyway, it is objectively true that there are very few equal-rights issues to debate about in regards to gender.
I wouldn't call myself an anti-feminist like Sputnik though. I would probably fall in line with someone like Christina Hoff Sommers who even though some people have labeled her anti-feminist, she has denied that. I think feminism seems to have moved mostly beyond the argument for equal-rights that marked second-wave feminism (which was for the most part, won). Rather, the real problem I have with third wave feminism is that it seems to take mostly social issues (using gendered language or gender roles as big examples) and tries to involve the government or make the issues something that they're not.
Final note - I also have mixed feelings about using the term "oppressed" when it exists solely in a social context. To say that a woman in the West is oppressed in my opinion downplays just how much progress has been made in terms of equality, and also downplays how women actually are oppressed in third world countries (see: Africa). I think it would make more sense to say that women are prejudiced against, which I would say is fairly true. However, on the flip side of that, I would argue that women have equal opportunity to do whatever they desire, so if you want to overturn the stereotype that "there's no such thing as a female doctor" there is literally nothing stopping you other than possibly hearing some guys make jokes about you. Even if other people dissuade you from following your dreams or your goals, I think you are still responsible for listening to those people since you ultimately control your own life.
Those are my thoughts on the feminist movement, but I'd be more than happy to hear what someone else has to say. Maybe JMM or pootle could chime in.
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