Silent Sputnik
A Hind D!?
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Post by Silent Sputnik on Jan 25, 2016 15:28:45 GMT -5
they will say that by dismantling the patriarchy it will help men too, but all the explanations I have seen for why that would help have been fairly vague and unsatisfactory. Doesn't exist imo. I wouldn't call myself an anti-feminist like Sputnik though. Anti third-wave anyways. I think it would make more sense to say that women are prejudiced against, which I would say is fairly true. Everyone is prejudiced against in some way or another. It seems obvious to me at least that men are prejudiced against more than women.
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Lenrat117
A Hind D!?
I may have the body of a weak and feeble man but I have the Heart and Stomach of a Queen.
Posts: 557
Now Playing: probably Fallout New Vegas
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Post by Lenrat117 on Jan 25, 2016 16:51:03 GMT -5
I think society's obsession with binary gender is the problem, not the patriarchy. I do have a bias against the binary system because I'm trans but I reckon it's still a problematic concept :/
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Post by MGNoxa on Jan 26, 2016 7:01:19 GMT -5
I think society's obsession with binary gender is the problem, not the patriarchy. I do have a bias against the binary system because I'm trans but I reckon it's still a problematic concept :/ What do you see problematic about it? I think even if there was evidence, even if it was really good evidence, to suggest that binary gender is the cause of a lot of problems, we still wouldn't be able to get rid of it because of marketing. Everything is marketed towards boys or girls, men or women, there's actually very little stuff that has a gender free audience. The Marvel movies are slowly becoming more split, but they're still targeted at the male audience. I think binary gender will disappear eventually but, I don't want to sound insensitive, but all these people showing up claiming to be cat people or dragon people or plastic bag people (I think I saw a plastic bag person) they damage all the good work people are putting in and set everything back.
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Silent Sputnik
A Hind D!?
Posts: 568
Now Playing: Rocket League
Favorite Game: Warcraft III
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Post by Silent Sputnik on Jan 26, 2016 9:31:23 GMT -5
I think binary gender will disappear eventually but, I don't want to sound insensitive, but all these people showing up claiming to be cat people or dragon people or plastic bag people (I think I saw a plastic bag person) they damage all the good work people are putting in and set everything back. Why would the gender binary disappear? It's intuitively obvious. Otherkin are either mentally ill or are desperate for attention.
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Post by MGNoxa on Jan 26, 2016 10:01:54 GMT -5
Why would the gender binary disappear? It's intuitively obvious. By disappear I mean not prevalent, people won't care about male or female labelling anymore. Right now the only benefit you get from describing yourself male or female is it's easier to know what you want from certain things. Men will typically like one thing more than women and so on. It won't ever go away, unless we all get robot bodies that look identical but I'm weird so I'd probably go with a round fat body so I can roll about or maybe I'll become Motoko Kusanagi from Ghost in the Shell.
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Lenrat117
A Hind D!?
I may have the body of a weak and feeble man but I have the Heart and Stomach of a Queen.
Posts: 557
Now Playing: probably Fallout New Vegas
Favorite Game: probably Europa Universalis 4
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Post by Lenrat117 on Jan 26, 2016 10:07:24 GMT -5
Just a quick reminder, sex and gender are completely different. Gender is a totally made up concept and sex is all about your biology, genitals, chromosomes ect. Sex is a solid fact, since gender is a creation of society, like class, it's technically not a real thing. This is where gender dysphoria comes in, it's when there's a psychological disconnect between identity and your biological sex. For example I have always felt, nay, been female despite being a biological male. Since one can't change ones chromosomes it comes down to trying to fit in with the gender that the sex is usually associated with. HOWEVER this is where the binary gender system shows it's flaws, by being so tightly associated with sex it becomes a lot harder for flexibility in attitude and breeds elitism. You can't be a flamboyant man because flamboyance can be feminine and if you're too feminine you're not a man, if you're biological man you're not a woman and since you fit into neither you are a freak. This shows a complete disregard for our metaphorical flamboyant man's identity, what he wants to be. Takes agency out of his own hands and into the hands of a society that doesn't understand. It's hard for trans people because they will always be bound to their biology and not their identity. All this trouble for gender; something that doesn't exist.
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Post by MGNoxa on Jan 26, 2016 10:25:58 GMT -5
Just a quick reminder, sex and gender are completely different. Gender is a totally made up concept and sex is all about your biology, genitals, chromosomes ect. Sex is a solid fact, since gender is a creation of society, like class, it's technically not a real thing. This is where gender dysphoria comes in, it's when there's a psychological disconnect between identity and your biological sex. For example I have always felt, nay, been female despite being a biological male. Since one can't change ones chromosomes it comes down to trying to fit in with the gender that the sex is usually associated with. HOWEVER this is where the binary gender system shows it's flaws, by being so tightly associated with sex it becomes a lot harder for flexibility in attitude and breeds elitism. You can't be a flamboyant man because flamboyance can be feminine and if you're too feminine you're not a man, if you're biological man you're not a woman and since you fit into neither you are a freak. This shows a complete disregard for our metaphorical flamboyant man's identity, what he wants to be. Takes agency out of his own hands and into the hands of a society that doesn't understand. It's hard for trans people because they will always be bound to their biology and not their identity. All this trouble for gender; something that doesn't exist. That makes sense but it just occurred to me that you are saying binary, are you saying that gender should go or there should be more genders? I'm just wondering because maybe it's not a gender problem but the way people think about genders. If you're a woman then you're a woman right? Sexual genitalia shouldn't matter.
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Silent Sputnik
A Hind D!?
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Post by Silent Sputnik on Jan 26, 2016 10:37:04 GMT -5
"By disappear I mean not prevalent, people won't care about male or female labelling anymore." Let's be honest. That will never happen. It's not like gender was just invented out of nowhere. It's mostly a natural result of sexual dimorphism and the 'roles' that are implied by it. Culture plays a role as well, of course. It's just inaccurate to say that it's strictly a social construct. I doubt that transgenderism will ever be normalized despite efforts to do so. It's totally possible to be a flamboyant man, but this isn't a desirable trait in heterosexual guys. If that man says he's gay, then no-one cares. If gender doesn't exist, then transgenderism doesn't exist. You have to choose.
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Lenrat117
A Hind D!?
I may have the body of a weak and feeble man but I have the Heart and Stomach of a Queen.
Posts: 557
Now Playing: probably Fallout New Vegas
Favorite Game: probably Europa Universalis 4
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Post by Lenrat117 on Jan 26, 2016 10:49:55 GMT -5
"If gender doesn't exist, then transgenderism doesn't exist. You have to choose."
Transgender is an odd term because you are right, it means nothing, the correct term is Transsexual. however since people who have already transitioned are the only one's who can be called transsexual it puts those who haven't in a weird limbo. Hence the creation of the odd term "transgender" :/
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Post by MGNoxa on Jan 26, 2016 11:58:40 GMT -5
"By disappear I mean not prevalent, people won't care about male or female labelling anymore." Let's be honest. That will never happen. It could happen, robot bodies, remember? Robot Bodies. If gender doesn't exist they won't be trans, they'll be what they want to be. I understand where Lenrat117 is coming from and I want it to be a simple answer but unfortunately I think we're a ways off. I may be joking about robot bodies but if you think about it, robot bodies are the only answer. "I doubt transgenderism will ever be normalised despite efforts to do so" It could be, with robot bodies. Okay, I'll stop with the robots now. I think it will be, I think in my lifetime it'll be accepted but not considered "normal" for a much longer time. As for being flamboyant and it not being a desirable trait well people have tastes and are attracted to different people. It's a world full of possibilities. That's why it's depressing the LGBT has problems fitting in. Even if you claim it isn't "right" to be LGBT humans were born from chaos, the world is chaos hence the unpredictable nature of it all so why punish anyone for being different? If anything being different is more human than fitting in. Video Game question... Lenrat117 how would you like to see trans representation in games? And how important do you think trans representation is behind the scenes?
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Post by crankiestseeker on Jan 26, 2016 12:13:44 GMT -5
It's totally possible to be a flamboyant man, but this isn't a desirable trait in heterosexual guys. If that man says he's gay, then no-one cares. I don't know about that, there are tons of people who hate others just for being gay. There's still lots of trans hate out there. But should people be hated on for their gender? Nah. Anyway, the only important thing from gender are gender roles. Most girls like x, most guys like y. But can a girl like y? Yes. Does that make her a guy? I guess if you believe that only guys can like y, but most people would probably say no. If your problem comes from the market being geared toward breaking people up into the male and female divide, I would just say tough luck. For example, there's nothing preventing you from buying dolls if you're a guy. If the only thing stopping you is that you are worried about how you will be perceived, I think that speaks more about your own level of self-confidence rather than anything else. Also just wanted to throw in that if you really want a different sex organ and you think it will truly make you happier, then go for it. If you want a different sex organ just because of what you are interested in, I don't think that's the right way to do things, but it's your life.
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Xargen
Metal Gear
Kickin' names, taking ass.
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Post by Xargen on Jan 26, 2016 12:18:26 GMT -5
I feel like it looks like it's a LONG way off, but it's not... Like, if we made some simple changes today, everything would seem normal to the kids two generations from now and that'd be their life... We feel very set in our ways because we've lived this way up until now and people generally aren't great with change. But we've done it in the past, like I don't think anyone these days would associate the colour pink with boys... Pink is a girls colour right? Well 100 years ago it was a boys colour, and just look at how disassociated boys and pink are today (granted it's slowly seeping back in)... Target stores in America caught some flack either last year or the year before for taking down their "Boys toys" and "Girls toys" signs in a bid to say "Toys are toys regardless of gender" but it didn't stop it being more or less a wall of pink and a wall of blue toys... Get some diversity in the toys and take down the signs the world over then kids will become more accustomed to fact that there's very little difference between the sexes, then they grow up and guide the younger generations... Hell, this is already happening in a way. I've seen loads of people with this kinda perspective... It's a matter of time, yes, but it won't take as long if we take some action
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Silent Sputnik
A Hind D!?
Posts: 568
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Post by Silent Sputnik on Jan 26, 2016 12:29:30 GMT -5
It's totally possible to be a flamboyant man, but this isn't a desirable trait in heterosexual guys. If that man says he's gay, then no-one cares. I don't know about that, there are tons of people who hate others just for being gay. There's still lots of trans hate out there. But should people be hated on for their gender? Nah. Homophobia isn't nearly as big a problem as it was before. I was indeed speaking generally. Also just wanted to throw in that if you really want a different sex organ and you think it will truly make you happier, then go for it. If you want a different sex organ just because of what you are interested in, I don't think that's the right way to do things, but it's your life. I'm certainly opposed to tax dollars funding that kind of thing. And hormone therapy, etc. being forced on children before they've even matured. But if that's what someone really wants, who am I to stop them?
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Post by crankiestseeker on Jan 26, 2016 14:20:05 GMT -5
I don't know about that, there are tons of people who hate others just for being gay. There's still lots of trans hate out there. But should people be hated on for their gender? Nah. Homophobia isn't nearly as big a problem as it was before. I was indeed speaking generally. I figured you were, and I know we can agree that homophobia isn't a good thing. And I agree, homophobia certainly has gone down as a problem, but I'm not sure if it's at the point where you can say it is nonexistent. It is certainly heading in that direction though. Of course, I may just be thinking of southern rednecks here in the US when I say that. I'll amend that though and say that homophobia is now frowned upon in the public sphere, and if your speech is homophobic you are less likely to be taken seriously, which is a pretty big step. Also just wanted to throw in that if you really want a different sex organ and you think it will truly make you happier, then go for it. If you want a different sex organ just because of what you are interested in, I don't think that's the right way to do things, but it's your life. I'm certainly opposed to tax dollars funding that kind of thing. And hormone therapy, etc. being forced on children before they've even matured. But if that's what someone really wants, who am I to stop them? I agree wholeheartedly that it should be a private action to purchase hormone therapy and sex change operations. I do not support tax dollars going to someone's personal problem. Clearly the rise in transgender teens is not just a coincidence with the rise of social media and sites such as tumblr. I'm sure there are a number of kids who are convinced to transition by these filthy degenerate liberal sites. However, I don't think that should discredit those who genuinely do want to transition. In that regard, I think the strongest argument is that if you don't take the hormones early enough (before/early into puberty) then the effect they have will never be quite right, which is true. So people who genuinely want to transition into another gender will never be allowed to "fully" transition. Personally I see it as similar to an age of consent kind of issue. I'm not sure I trust 14 year olds to mess with their hormones. I'd be curious to see studies that look into how many people that take hormone therapy as teens end up regretting their decision vs how many are happy with it. I suppose there would also have to be studies of transgender teen suicide rate vs transitioned teen suicide rate. So yeah. No tax dollars, private organizations, brainwashing kids = bad, kids that might genuinely be unhappy and might be happier if they transitioned are an area that I think just needs more research.
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Silent Sputnik
A Hind D!?
Posts: 568
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Post by Silent Sputnik on Jan 26, 2016 14:27:24 GMT -5
Clearly the rise in transgender teens is not just a coincidence with the rise of social media and sites such as tumblr. I'm sure there are a number of kids who are convinced to transition by these filthy degenerate liberal This is where otherkins, etc. make me uneasy about transgenderism. In that regard, I think the strongest argument is that if you don't take the hormones early enough (before/early into puberty) then the effect they have will never be quite right, which is true. So people who genuinely want to transition into another gender will never be allowed to "fully" transition. True, but that doesn't justify child abuse. I'd be curious to see studies that look into how many people that take hormone therapy as teens end up regretting their decision vs how many are happy with it. I suppose there would also have to be studies of transgender teen suicide rate vs transitioned teen suicide rate. Research exists on this topic, though not as much as there should be because social pressure doesn't allow funding of politically incorrect ideas. The rate of transition regret and suicide is staggering.
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